20120920 prc vip14 q81-84

20/09/2012 prc vip14 q81-84


1.18 20120920 Q81-84


I am curious about the relevance and significance of Andrew Harvey's book to me for this retreat. He speaks in god-language, of ritual and awe and signs and wonders - all the things of which this journey of approach to spiritual knowledge and practice does not. Why is that?

^The answer to your question will be a long one, so gird your loins for battle. ;-)

The essential feature of spiritual practice is an attitude of gratitude. This need be in no degree flamboyant or externalised, just to be reverently quiet will do admirably. And so this is the prime distinction between what is promoted here and now in this place and with this teaching, in contrast to all that has been accreted to superstition, fallacy, genuine spiritual knowing or humbug as the case may be. It is this attitude of gratitude for the receipt of love that is the foundation of our message.

The factual models and relationships have traditionally been compounded to engage the uneducated and naive person to maximise the impact on their psyche and its beliefs. What is not recognised in these days of scientistic fervour is the essentially simple relationship between brethren, to use that archaic term. The node of Dao-consciousness, to use our now-preferred term, merely separates itself into parts for maximal efficiency in data collection, then despatches itself into that other domain of physicality for its own advantage. The co-hosting of that in the human animal does nothing to change its nature. So why would one validly worship another part of oneself? To give obeisance and adoration to, for example, one's little toe, is to render it separate and absurd in difference.

That is why our preference is to, with this novel expression in fresh language of what has always been understood as having value, that a return to simplicity and accuracy of regard to the entire phenomenon of nature divided into separate domains now be understood in its entirety without recourse to historically derived error.

With regard to the subtext of your question - why is this expression without ecstatic signs and wonders, we would have only this to say - you cannot see them for we have hidden them from you exactly in order to achieve our aims. Therefore your descriptions and our dialogue with you is shorn of god language and vapid exaggeration as typically used historically to increase the advantage to the teller of such tales. That is not to say that many of such experiencers were not expressing their truth. Of course they were. But the twin factors of subsequent exaggeration and pre-perceptual interpretation were not known then to any original recipient of communicative endeavour such as you are. Therefore, as they struggled to find descriptive terminology adequate to the task of rendering their experience intelligible to any other person, they had to draw on metaphor understandable to their time in their culture. The moment that happened, a myth was born. And with the next retelling of the event, accretion and inaccuracy began to accumulate.

That is the reason we have requested your expertise in the recording arts by which to accumulate a re-examinable archive of the stream of description we have provided, enclosing as it does the emotional impact through voice inflection of which the written form is a poor copy and second interpretation, already restricted into representative symbols from which the original complete information must be rebuilt by any reader and thereby contaminated with their interpretation, the third in that series. P Thank you for making that abundantly clear.

07:30 Recording duration 50:40 Q81. The information has already been conveyed that the origin of the life plan in respect of the mutual working on a preferred outcome by these two individuals Keith Hill and this man, was established prior to the incarnation of either. And that of course is using time-bound language. There were foreseen to be some preparatory steps which would enhance the eventual result such as to bring a condensation of history and an interpretation of history with respect to the then extant Upanishads and Bhagavad Gita. Existing as they do within the context of a developed spectrum of understanding concerning the relationship between Dao-consciousness, the Dao itself and humanity populated with nodes of Dao-consciousness by which to observe these things. So therefore the developmental path of the individual Keith Hill, in terms of his local bio-consciousness, was to first, gain an education. Second, to shape that as influenced by his curiosity as influenced by his life plan. And then to guide his conduct and interest and development and location such as to pursue his life plan as intended.

That that was further enabled by meeting his teacher in India was to further reinforce his suitability for being an eventual co-recipient of an intention to describe in fresh terms within the language of English what was conveyed originally in Marathi or the language of those times in that location on the earth's surface and into that culture of naturally aggressive individuals competing for space and resources on that plain of Kuru.

It should be understood in attempting to interpret these things, that the population in the region of Kuru had been developed for many centuries already. And there was a mixture of semi-resident and also mobile individuals, by which we mean wandering herdsmen utilising the species on which they preyed in those days, as well as beginning the practice of agriculture. And so in the range between ten thousand and five thousand BCE there was a sparse but developed culture and in pockets sufficiently concentrated to strain the resources of the local environment. The organisation of that culture into competing clans was no different than in most other places of human occupancy in those days and for much of it since. And given our predilection for expressing such things in terms of the myths in evidence, then the competing clans had their own versions of the myths and origins of human existence.

The shamans of the time had a natural human competitiveness which was similarly felt by the clan leaders. And when beliefs grew too different or individuals grew too aggressive and resources became worth competing for, then the manner of their competition was as it always has been between humans, which was to go into battle.

Battle myths are always exaggerated. The battles are memorable precisely because they enable the division of resources. The enticement into story-telling by the second generation after such a battle serves several purposes within their clan culture, the major purpose being to convey to the new generation justifications for what was fought for, a valuing of what was fought for and an understanding of the necessity in such times for young men to prove themselves worthy of claiming territory and progeny. In this way, by the third generation typically, the distant story has been glorified. The impact of every component of it has been exaggerated and the bards of the culture make it their business to ensure their place in that culture by their capacity to, with only cursory interest in accuracy, to tell a satisfying tale, any component of which can be momentarily exaggerated according to the whim of the moment and the audience in receipt of their words, songs, stories, music - whatever the portrayal may be.

Given that in those days it was an oral culture, for writing had yet to be invented, there is no way of knowing the detail of what in fact occurred. It could have been half a dozen people in battle with half a dozen others, or it could have as easily been half a thousand on each side. The invalidity of any attempt to ascribe accuracy to such stories has prevented and will always prevent, until one contemplates cultures in which there is accurate historical record, means that there can be only the most general sense in which undeniable degrees of accuracy prevail. And so yes it is true there was a warrior culture comprising many clans. Yes it is true there was competition for space and all the other resources necessary for the survival of groups of humans. No, it was not required that the information be rendered through time in an accurate form. And no, it was not required that there be any accurate record of the impact, let alone the fact of spiritual intervention occurring at any particular time.

Nevertheless it is generally true that as according to the historical record now available in a subsequent language, that there was a decisive battle in that general location, that it was understood to be an opportunity to introduce into humanity then a fresh representation of the facts of humans being an animal form with a spiritual co-associate for each. And so the opportunity was taken to bring some wisdom to one of the protagonists at that time. And we decline to specify any more than that and whether in fact the general overseeing and leading the battle, if he could be described using that modern term, was in fact the recipient of that spiritual intrusion into his awareness.

What has resulted is a memorable story containing not only personal perceptions but also accretions and exaggerations and it is not our task to distinguish one from the other. The essential point is that the spiritual intention was manifest, in that subsequent generations, and we decline to specify how many, acquired the potential advantage of having a broader understanding of their state and location as enspirited individuals so as to increase the exactitude of their understanding of their circumstances.

Later additions to that text and the culture in general concretised the advantage of one class at the expense of others. The Brahmin caste became the dominant class and have remained so until the present day. The general success of the spiritual endeavour at that time was to increase the probability of a cooperative society and culture extending more or less uninterrupted and without major discontinuity into the far future, and so it has occurred.

This attempt on this occasion to form the foundation for a similar refreshed understanding by which any individual human can understand themselves to be an enspirited animal so as to engender respect one to another on the basis of their enspirited nature, rather than their competitive inner drives from the animal level, has the capacity to reinvigorate understanding through a fresh series of generations of humanity.

The extent to which it does so, of course, is subject to its competitive advantage in relation to the myriad now present other stories of existence and the bases of humanity now existent within these various cultures. Nevertheless we are part of the developed incentive and intention to constructively manipulate humanity in its best interests, because they have requested that.

In that sense these two individuals are merely pawns in that larger objective. They have taken on that role willingly and are endeavouring to achieve a balanced result in transferring their understanding into an optimal means by which the information may be dispersed through whatever community finds it attractive. To the degree that is achieved then so also is our task.

Q82. We feel that we have already responded to these points.

Q83a. We have already referred to the competitiveness implicit and actually present within the warrior culture of those days.

83b. We have already identified that the impulse to generate the Bhagavad Gita was a spiritual impulse.

83c. We agree with your description.

Q84. (and the sub parts to that questions are incorrectly identified d, e, and f. They should be a, b, and c.)

Q84a. Of the locations on the planet in the range 5 to 10 thousand BCE, there were a greater concentration of individuals at the mature phase of their spiritual developmental journey in that location than anywhere else on the planet. It must be understood that the purposes of any individual seeking expression of themselves is matched by the propensity of the culture into which they are born. And so for those individuals seeking a life by which their personal advantage is maximised, then a subset of the population may place themselves wherever that is achievable. And so for the subset of individuals who would manifest into a population for which a curiosity concerning origins was present, then it naturally becomes a logically specifiable objective for individuals of that nature to locate themselves for the duration of their physical incarnation. And so it was a factor in the circumstances that the combination of climate and culturally expressed wealth as well as agronomically expressed wealth, brought a degree of available leisure to some individuals in that location at that time on this planet, that it formed an attractive location for those nodes of Dao-consciousness who sought the expression of their life in such a way as to contribute to the understanding of the true nature of the embodied human.

84b. From external to the physical universe it is easy to sustain awareness of any factor of expression in the physical universe. That includes cultural propensities and long term developmental probabilities. And so given the human population and its projections in terms of probable trajectory of development, it was spiritually determined that it would be advantageous to make an explicit expression of spiritual experience into India and in particular the Northern part, a place of rich natural resources for the development of population and culture, that were despatched some few individuals who had the capacity to engender an enriched understanding of the facts of their placement into association with the human animal common in those days. From their awareness of their indwelling spiritual identity they were able to fashion a lucid description using the metaphors available at their command.

It was sufficiently valued, as expected, to be preserved and hence to influence countless generations of subsequent residents of that area and its influence was spread through migration and modes of the extension of authority in cultural terms throughout the Indian subcontinent. And so the advantage was obtained not only at the time of the original gathering together of individuals of like mind valuing similar things, finding the capacity to preserve those things and then actually doing so in a manner which resulted in the intended influence across a broad spectrum of the human population. That is always the intention when a specific and intensive transmission of spiritual wisdom is inculcated into the human or any other species. It is not a random nor chance event.

Q84c. Krishna is a construct in the logic of description. It is a feature of every descriptive dialogue to have roles by which a dialogue, not a monologue, is constrained into human form so as to enable the identification of any individual with one character or another. The role designated to Krishna in that description of events, is to be the imparter of supernal wisdom. From this distance it is impossible to specify with any attributable accuracy exactly who said what, but merely to recognise that the story has been structured and stylised by skilled rhetoricians into an apocryphal story in which there is a range of characters, each believable in their own right, and that the character embodying supernal wisdom is the means by which it is taken out of the mundane realm and placed securely within the timeless realm. Were that not the case then that story would not have survived.

At this distance through time it is necessary and appropriate to cease regarding that story as being literally true, but see its content as having been skilfully massaged in order to convey to a broad range of individuals, more or less accurate descriptions of the intention of its construction. That intention was to capture some information and convey it through time and across populations, to be endemic in its reach and apocryphal in its descriptive mode so as to maximise its influence on the greatest number of people. It is idealist literature conveying eternal truths and attempting to be an accurate portrayal of the relationship between embodied humanity and disembodied humanity and to convey a broader context than that, in which an understanding can be created of the small and local, in contrast to the cosmic and eternal. The exact means by which these parameters are conveyable is mere detail.

So it is not essential that attachment be retained to that description. What is relevant are the similarities, for the intention behind the original perception and subsequent description and even more subsequent recording of those events into durable form, is simply the means by which an influential myth was to be generated.

More importantly, its various facets have been supported by countless other individuals who have experienced a variety of phenomena by which to support the ongoing transmission of the Bhagavad Gita and related scriptures through time. And so buoyed up, as it were, by subsequent generations of mystics, that - and a metaphor of the boat, galley or barge could be invoked here - buoyed up on the waters of submission to the sublime, that perennial articulation of wisdom has floated gently through time to arrive at the shores of current understanding.

And so the role of Krishna is as a character in that fable, essential and indicative of particular components of that myth, embodying within that character both human and divine qualities. And that is descriptive of the reality of every embodied node of Dao-consciousness. Although great reverence for that history is appropriate at the level of the rational interpreter of myth, then it is entirely appropriate to view Krishna as a character as much as representing ultimate reality.

22:00 I've re-read 20120826 - invocation of the strong self - it again helps explain my curious state of being unworried at progress or lack of it in addressing that task for which I came here. This afternoon I was very interested in solving my boredom problem - even though I had just completed an interesting and probably important transcript - but enthusiastically jumped in the car to go to Kuaotunu for entertainment. In fact I bought the Herald in its new small format, and a peanut slab. In my forswearing of sugar I have not had one of those in years, so that was a small celebration. So I sat on the beach edge under trees in the lee of the hill in the brilliant sun and get much hotter there than at Matapaua in the southerly wind now arisen, and read the paper and rested. And having taken respite, I happily came back and baked a cake. Unfortunately the mouse had been living in the stove, so instead of enjoying the cake smell as it cooked, the place soon stank of mouse urine again! Damn! Fortunately opening the doors and windows soon dispelled the bad smell and the cake tasted OK. Tomorrow I will dismantle the oven to clean it further. What a lot of impact one small rodent can have

The really strange event was on later waking after a nap, I felt something jumping around on the duvet near my right foot. It felt about the weight of a mouse. Thinking another rodent was with me I kicked out, intending to send it to the floor. But there was no sound at all. And no further movement, although I waited quietly. Then I looked under the bed but without result. I picked up my clothes carefully before dressing - not any sign of insect or rodent! The persistent impression I have is the the dead mouse returned in spirit to playfully recreate its happy presence in my awareness to relieve my sadness at causing its demise. Folly? Possibly ;-) Or not. I may never know. But I have talked to several widows who have described their dead and buried partner leaving physical impressions on the bedding as they came present again in spirit to console their lover in her grief.

[3341 words]


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Peter Calvert - AgapeSchoolinz

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